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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Engine/Gearbox questions and discussion
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H22A Lude
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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by H22A Lude » Tue May 04, 2021 2:42 pm

Brief backstory.
My H22A (JDM blacktop) was last tuned for stock cams with most current boltons using a P72 ECU with Neptune. I also have a FPR, SAFCII and AEM Wideband for minor adjustments. Peak dyno numbers were 194whp/143wkw. Best ¼ mile time was 14.4@158km/h (~98mph). I later switched to Euro R cams (Example of ¼ mile run with EuroRs with 2.5" exhaust: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjGugEm75X8&t=16s - this video link seems a bit off, Youtube error. I have others uploaded if this fails) and had the exhaust enlarged with the help of a Lude brother from 2.5” to 3” (Hytech replica header collector modified from 2.25” to 2.5” expanding to 3”). Now to add to those, I have upgraded the valve train and camshafts yet again.

I took a maintenance opportunity (replacing leaking valve stem seals) to upgrade the top end (if interested I made a video clip of the process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbK7ijbRnf0 - severely truncated - it took a while to get the job done). The valve train now consists of: Stock valves (the head remained on block so still “unopened”), Ferrea valvetrain (80LBS dual spring) and Jun’s Stage III camshaft + Skunk 2 Pro cam gears (Both zeroed on adjustment), all on a stock H22A 10.6:1 bottom end. I did the mods myself, so no machine shop involved. The engine has not been degreed but nor has the block been torn open. I have done a solid run-in (~500kms of < 3.5k rpm) to seat everything. I did a few pulls to get the wideband readouts safe (~13-13.5:1 at WOT) and did a few runs down the 1/4mile.

The punchline.
The best ¼ mile time on the Juns was 15.29 @ 93mph. To put that in perspective, this car in 100% stock trim ran the 1/4mile in 15.2 @ 93mph with 157whp (all on the same dyno). I knew stock compression was not ideal, but I was not expecting a loss in power with more lift and duration, even untuned and un-degreed (that makes it ~40-50whp loss!).
I am trying to figure out where to go from here. Degree motor? Compression test? Revert to Euro R camshafts and wait for high compression piston upgrade to happen, or get a full dyno-tune and see what it makes. Any input appreciated. Car runs "fine". Idles ok once its been running for a bit. Drag video link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbH1dWVpi0I .
1991 4thgen Prelude daily: BB1 auto-H22A with general bolt ons- 130wkw, 15.34 @ 150km/h
1992 4thgen Prelude drag build: BB4 T2W4 - Best of ~143wkw, 14.42 @ 158km/h (https://honda-tech.com/forums/appearanc ... l-3119927/ https://www.preludepower.com/threads/bb ... ul.358087/)
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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by Vtecmec » Tue May 04, 2021 2:59 pm

@RattyMcClelland @Drax These guys run big cams and might have something that can help.

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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by Drax » Tue May 04, 2021 4:20 pm

194whp sounds like a very happy dyno for stock h22a cams and 10:6:1 compression even with basic bolt-ons but hey i wouldn't be complaining :thumbup: i'd expect that from the EuroR cams

your compression will be letting you down here overall, even getting 11:1 pistons in there will help a lot, plus proper mapping and an ATR inlet mani.
what are your other mods apart from the 3" exhaust?

Your JUN cams need degreeing in that's all, i'll find the setup from mine bare with me - save you a lot of work with a degree kit that i had to use 8) ....
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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by RattyMcClelland » Tue May 04, 2021 4:31 pm

Yep, they need degreeing in and properly tuned. Big cams means more duration and richer fueling Vs timing and it saps power unless it's properly tuned.
For reference I'm on 11.5-7ish wiseco pistons skunk 2 pro 2 cams, usual supporting mods, rods etc etc. 231whp -160wlbft. Quite lumpy on the low cam and can be tricky to drive smoothly.
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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by H22A Lude » Wed May 05, 2021 12:57 am

Cheers for the replies. Some indications on timing settings would help, but as they say each engine may well be different, even in factory trim lol. Should give me some idea of how far they need to go.

Nice, I am sure Pro2's will be quite similar. I am hoping to get compression up to 12:1, ideally higher. Just limited on options. Cheap route is Mahle golds which has been used with success here locally: https://nzhondas.com/topic/83937-h22-na ... th-videos/. My set up is fairly similar to that build minus bottom end and a few other details. I did consider getting Darton dry sleeves to give more piston options, plus future proof.

As for manifold, I am planning to stick with the stock manifold but with heavy modification (currently 70mm Skunk2 + port match of 70mm tappering to 66mm and 3 IAB spacer plates; I good results fitting just one blank IAB plate with IHE mods). I have all the bits to do this: https://youtu.be/sYs4tZR6gRo?t=568

I got some good numbers out of an aged stock bottom end. I had good success with modifying the intake IAB plates. Been good at getting dyno's done to track progress but slacked off the last few years...
I have my build thread on Honda-tech and PreludePower. Will link them in my signature.
The 193whp was a long time ago and with stock cams (~2014)! Likely had another 5-10whp with the EuroRs.

Quick summary in graphics (OCD clearly, but it helps me get the car back on track lol):

Stock (~2013):
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https://youtu.be/VorMMlTJSko

Basic Boltons + P72 & Crome (~2013):
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https://youtu.be/9YtDwv3E-eY
https://youtu.be/ZIwIuaGm7QQ
https://youtu.be/yKWnb_y9vTw

More Mods + Custom Intake manifold (~2014):
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https://youtu.be/BDJ2IK4HDoc

Retune on Mustang Dyno (Neptune; ~2015):
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtwCJL8iZY0
https://youtu.be/DrNzXEMDcs8

Nitto 555Rs, T2W4, ACT Clutch, Euro Rs (~2016):
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https://youtu.be/kfkyUNN61Bs

Present day:
Innovative Traction bar + Header & Exhaust mods + Tempesta Enzos + Ferrea + Juns
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https://youtu.be/hbH1dWVpi0I

I'll look into a degree kit. Any recommendations? Looks like the KS Tuned one is the best bang for buck. https://www.kstuned.com/products/k-ser ... degree-kit
I feel the car owes me something better than 14.4 @ 158km/h and definitely more than 200whp.lol.
1991 4thgen Prelude daily: BB1 auto-H22A with general bolt ons- 130wkw, 15.34 @ 150km/h
1992 4thgen Prelude drag build: BB4 T2W4 - Best of ~143wkw, 14.42 @ 158km/h (https://honda-tech.com/forums/appearanc ... l-3119927/ https://www.preludepower.com/threads/bb ... ul.358087/)
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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by Drax » Wed May 05, 2021 9:26 am

+3 Ex, -1.5 In - that's what i have set up for my JUN cams.

Summit racing is my degree kit, worked well.

i dont have the money for big pistons so i built (and building another currently) a frankenstein engine using F22 (then F23) crank & rods for higher compression
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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by H22A Lude » Wed May 05, 2021 11:27 am

Drax wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:26 am
+3 Ex, -1.5 In - that's what i have set up for my JUN cams.

Summit racing is my degree kit, worked well.

i dont have the money for big pistons so i built (and building another currently) a frankenstein engine using F22 (then F23) crank & rods for higher compression
Cheers for the numbers. That is a decent adjustment which gives me some hope in getting some power out of them. Headwork has cost a fair bit but at least I managed to do it myself which makes it affordable. The bottom end numbers skyrocket quickly. I am leaning towards Mahle golds just because it will work out much less. Compression might only get to 11.5 or slightly more but it should be enough to get some solid power. The F22 or F23 crank and rods is interesting. What do you rev yours up to? I see mixed things on how high the H22A can rev. I feel ~8300rpm would be the peak with some balancing. I have a spare H22A block with P5P pistons but I feel that's not going to have enough compression either.
1991 4thgen Prelude daily: BB1 auto-H22A with general bolt ons- 130wkw, 15.34 @ 150km/h
1992 4thgen Prelude drag build: BB4 T2W4 - Best of ~143wkw, 14.42 @ 158km/h (https://honda-tech.com/forums/appearanc ... l-3119927/ https://www.preludepower.com/threads/bb ... ul.358087/)
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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by Drax » Wed May 05, 2021 1:17 pm

hopefully ill get 12.51 compression from the F23 crank & rods im using, about to clay the block in case anything touches first.

i cant remember what my tuner set the rev limit at, i need to find my dyno printout - im tempted to say 8k but it could be less as he was cautious
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Requesting your expertise on making NA power on big cams with the H22A.

Post by H22A Lude » Thu May 06, 2021 3:12 am

Nice, 12.5 compression will be really solid. Yeah, on my retune I'll not rev higher than 7800rpm for the time being. H22A's head seems to run out of flow around there. I have not seen any H22A dyno plots that had the torque curve remain flat/ or climbing beyond ~7.5k rpm. The F23 crank should make for some good torque also. It would be awesome to see your old dyno plot (and the next one!). The Jun Lemon's specs look solid and they had 12.3:1 (269 ps / 7650rpm, MAX TORQUE 27kgm / 5500rpm). I feel like the Jun's setup could have achieve more with a better header and larger exhaust. I would be stoked with 200wkw (~270whp).

Side note, reuploaded my last Euro R camshaft drag video. Definitely climbed quick, especially in 3rd and 4th gear. https://youtu.be/KTioUB_nois
1991 4thgen Prelude daily: BB1 auto-H22A with general bolt ons- 130wkw, 15.34 @ 150km/h
1992 4thgen Prelude drag build: BB4 T2W4 - Best of ~143wkw, 14.42 @ 158km/h (https://honda-tech.com/forums/appearanc ... l-3119927/ https://www.preludepower.com/threads/bb ... ul.358087/)
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