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Callipers failed.. AGAIN
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lewd lude lover
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BlackShadow
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:25 am
- My Generation: 5G
- Location: Whitby. Not THAT Whitby, the other Whitby, the one in Durham. Not THAT Durham, the other Durham.
Shitty timing on this one. I just did my brakes, twice actually (once to replace rotors/pads, and then again this month to paint calipers). If it had of been earlier, I could have taken pictures or even made a video for you. I'm not pulling my brakes apart for a third time in two months so don't ask! 
One of my front calipers was seized up badly, and I found the grease was all dried up.
1) Block the front wheels, jack the car up, and put jack stands under it.
2) Take your wheel off.
3) Look around the back of the caliper and you'll see two bolts which are 14's I think. There is a good picture of them in the first page of this thread. Carefully break them loose. If they feel like they're going to round off STOP!
4) Once the bolts are out you can move the caliper out of the way. Don't let it dangle by the brake line. I usually rest it on a convenient suspension part.
5) You can now try sliding the pins (they are where the caliper bolted onto the bracket.
If they are stuck you can pull them out and lube them, or you can do what I did:
Caliper pin service:
1) Pull the brake pads out of the caliper bracket, and remove the two bolts holding the bracket to the hub.
2) Gently pull the rubber boots out of their bores. Spray them with brake clean and clean out all the crap inside of them. I took mine inside and cleaned them out with a toothbrush and dish soap. The old grease was sticking the "pleats" together.
3) Spray the bores inside the caliper bracket with brake cleaner and let it sit for a bit. Then go in with a pipe cleaner, or rolled up paper towel and clean out all the old grease.
4) If the bores for the boots are corroded, you can clean them up too with a wire wheel, wire brush or sandpaper. Make sure to blow out all the debris or it will be in with your pins.
5) Dry out the pin bores with compressed air, or paper towel (just make sure it doesn't break and leave any at the bottom of the bore.
6) Lube your slide pins and slip them into the bores without the boots installed. Slide them in and out, and rotate them. (if you slide them more than 5 times, you're being dirty...just sayin) You should also clean up the area at the head of the pin where the boot seats into the pin, so it will make a good seal.
7) Pull them out and reinstall your boots again. You may need a pocket screwdriver to make sure they hook properly.
8 ) Reinstall your slide pins into the caliper bracket.
9) Re-install the bracket on the hub. it may be a PITA because you can't actually see the holes because of the rotor.
10) Re-install your brake pads (if they are reusable). If your pads were stuck in the caliper bracket, you should remove the thin metal shim/springs the pads were resting on. Once they are out of the way, you might find a buildup of rust where they sat. Clean that out with sandpaper, wire wheel, or die grinder. Reinstall those shims/springs in their seats.
11) When reinstalling the pads I take a touch of anti-sieze and apply it to the edges of the pads (where they contact those shims/springs) so they won't corrode and hang up.
12) At this point you can try to put the caliper back on. It may slip into place. Make sure you turn the heads of the caliper pins so the flat sides are at 12 o clock and 6 o clock.
Cleaned boots:
If the caliper won't go over the pads:
1) Get some 1/4 inch clear plastic tube, and a pop bottle. Poke a hole in the top of the bottle, and feed the tube through. put liquid (preferably brake fluid in the bottom of the bottle and submerge the end of the tube.
Like this
2) Get yourself some needle nose visegrips and put garden hose over the jaws so the teeth are covered. Pinch off the rubber brake line.
3) Grab some silicone brake caliper lube and with a small screwdriver, rub some of it around the edge of the caliper piston and the rubber boot that surrounds it.
4) Take your 10 mm wrench and crack the bleeder screw open. Put the end of your pop bottle tube on the nipple of the bleeder screw.
5) Take a large flat screwdriver, prybar, chisel, or if you have it, a caliper piston retractor, and turn the piston CLOCKWISE. It should turn and "screw" back into it's bore. If you see the boot binging, stop and apply more lube to it. While the piston is turning and backing into the bore, you should see brake fluid coming out of the caliper bleed screw and flow through the tube you installed.
Tools you can use:
If the piston won't go into it's bore, and you don't see fluid, the bleed screw isn't open far enough, or is clogged. if so, take the bleed screw right out. You should now see fluid dribbling out of the caliper. Clean the bleeder screw with a wire wheel, or wire brush. There should be a small hole in the threads, thats where the fluid comes out. Clean till you see it. Reinstall and try turning the piston again. If worse come to worst, you can leave the bleeder out for the time being. it will be more messy though, so have a pan or something to catch the brake fluid. Don't get it on your paint!
6) Turn the piston till it's all the way back in it's bore. It won't stop turning, but will be bottomed out.
IMPORTANT! Make sure the plus sign on the face of the piston is angled in such a way that the vertical groove is straight up and down when viewed through the arch on the front of the caliper. I realize it's on an angle, so gentleman's sausage your head to the side. You'll see an arch, and the "+" Make sure the top of the "+" points to 12 o clock in that arch. If it doesn't, you will have mushy brakes.
Like this:
If you go past the 12 o clock position on the piston, go around again. Don't turn it counter clockwise.
7) Once you have the piston in position, close/reinstall your bleeder screw, and slip the caliper over the pads and onto the caliper bracket. You can also remove the vise grips from the brake line. Since you're working on the rear calipers, you will have the parking brake cable fighting you so it may take a bit to get it squared away. IMPORTANT: carefully thread the caliper bolts back into the slide pins. Feel for any resistance (when I am removing mine, I give them a few turns back in so I can get a feel for how much resistance to expect). The reason for this, especially on the rears is because of the parking brake assembly, the caliper will want to fight you, and won't want to sit straight in the bracket. If you start threading the caliper bolts into the pins and the caliper is crooked, you could risk cross threading the bolts which would be a bad day. If there was no resistance before and there is now, something is out of whack. Be patient and careful. Don't over tighten the bolts.
Also, on all the bolts, I put a touch of anti seize on the threads so they will be easier to work with next time.
Give your wheel a spin. it will be noisy from the pads sitting against it. No worries.
8 ) Get in and push your brake pedal. It will probably be soft. Pop your hood (or bonnet) and top off your master cylinder. Try the brakes again. You should have a good pedal again. If not the vise grips weren't tight enough, and air got into the system. No biggie, you will have to bleed your brakes.
Brake bleeding:
Order of operation: (5th gen)
Left front
Right front
Right rear
Left rear
1) Top off the master cylinder.
2) Take your pop bottle bleeder, and put the tube on the bleeder screw nipple.
3) Open the bleeder screw.
4) Pump the brakes a couple times and look for (or have a friend look for) fluid going through the tube. When the fluid coming from the caliper turns solid (no gaps or bubbles) close the bleeder screw.
5) Repeat for each wheel, and check/top off the master cylinder OFTEN! Never let it run dry.
On the rear calipers, because the bleeder screw is in a stupid position, you may have a hard time getting a good seal on the bleeder screw/tube. you can use a zip tie, or have a friend hold the tube on the bleed screw tightly.
By the end of this you should have a good stiff pedal again.
6) Reinstall the rubber caps on the bleeder screws.
You may have to readjust your parking brake. To do this, I take out the console (you don't have to completely remove it, but I do because it's easier.)
1) Remove console
2) Pull the parking brake up one click/notch and spin the rear wheels to see if there is slight drag.
2) Adjust the nut (with the parking brake released) to adjust until you get slight drag with one notch. If you do it correctly, the parking brake will be fully engaged at 6-10 notches.
I hope this helps.
One of my front calipers was seized up badly, and I found the grease was all dried up.
1) Block the front wheels, jack the car up, and put jack stands under it.
2) Take your wheel off.
3) Look around the back of the caliper and you'll see two bolts which are 14's I think. There is a good picture of them in the first page of this thread. Carefully break them loose. If they feel like they're going to round off STOP!
4) Once the bolts are out you can move the caliper out of the way. Don't let it dangle by the brake line. I usually rest it on a convenient suspension part.
5) You can now try sliding the pins (they are where the caliper bolted onto the bracket.
If they are stuck you can pull them out and lube them, or you can do what I did:
Caliper pin service:
1) Pull the brake pads out of the caliper bracket, and remove the two bolts holding the bracket to the hub.
2) Gently pull the rubber boots out of their bores. Spray them with brake clean and clean out all the crap inside of them. I took mine inside and cleaned them out with a toothbrush and dish soap. The old grease was sticking the "pleats" together.
3) Spray the bores inside the caliper bracket with brake cleaner and let it sit for a bit. Then go in with a pipe cleaner, or rolled up paper towel and clean out all the old grease.
4) If the bores for the boots are corroded, you can clean them up too with a wire wheel, wire brush or sandpaper. Make sure to blow out all the debris or it will be in with your pins.
5) Dry out the pin bores with compressed air, or paper towel (just make sure it doesn't break and leave any at the bottom of the bore.
6) Lube your slide pins and slip them into the bores without the boots installed. Slide them in and out, and rotate them. (if you slide them more than 5 times, you're being dirty...just sayin) You should also clean up the area at the head of the pin where the boot seats into the pin, so it will make a good seal.
7) Pull them out and reinstall your boots again. You may need a pocket screwdriver to make sure they hook properly.
8 ) Reinstall your slide pins into the caliper bracket.
9) Re-install the bracket on the hub. it may be a PITA because you can't actually see the holes because of the rotor.
10) Re-install your brake pads (if they are reusable). If your pads were stuck in the caliper bracket, you should remove the thin metal shim/springs the pads were resting on. Once they are out of the way, you might find a buildup of rust where they sat. Clean that out with sandpaper, wire wheel, or die grinder. Reinstall those shims/springs in their seats.
11) When reinstalling the pads I take a touch of anti-sieze and apply it to the edges of the pads (where they contact those shims/springs) so they won't corrode and hang up.
12) At this point you can try to put the caliper back on. It may slip into place. Make sure you turn the heads of the caliper pins so the flat sides are at 12 o clock and 6 o clock.
Cleaned boots:
If the caliper won't go over the pads:
1) Get some 1/4 inch clear plastic tube, and a pop bottle. Poke a hole in the top of the bottle, and feed the tube through. put liquid (preferably brake fluid in the bottom of the bottle and submerge the end of the tube.
Like this
2) Get yourself some needle nose visegrips and put garden hose over the jaws so the teeth are covered. Pinch off the rubber brake line.
3) Grab some silicone brake caliper lube and with a small screwdriver, rub some of it around the edge of the caliper piston and the rubber boot that surrounds it.
4) Take your 10 mm wrench and crack the bleeder screw open. Put the end of your pop bottle tube on the nipple of the bleeder screw.
5) Take a large flat screwdriver, prybar, chisel, or if you have it, a caliper piston retractor, and turn the piston CLOCKWISE. It should turn and "screw" back into it's bore. If you see the boot binging, stop and apply more lube to it. While the piston is turning and backing into the bore, you should see brake fluid coming out of the caliper bleed screw and flow through the tube you installed.
Tools you can use:
If the piston won't go into it's bore, and you don't see fluid, the bleed screw isn't open far enough, or is clogged. if so, take the bleed screw right out. You should now see fluid dribbling out of the caliper. Clean the bleeder screw with a wire wheel, or wire brush. There should be a small hole in the threads, thats where the fluid comes out. Clean till you see it. Reinstall and try turning the piston again. If worse come to worst, you can leave the bleeder out for the time being. it will be more messy though, so have a pan or something to catch the brake fluid. Don't get it on your paint!
6) Turn the piston till it's all the way back in it's bore. It won't stop turning, but will be bottomed out.
IMPORTANT! Make sure the plus sign on the face of the piston is angled in such a way that the vertical groove is straight up and down when viewed through the arch on the front of the caliper. I realize it's on an angle, so gentleman's sausage your head to the side. You'll see an arch, and the "+" Make sure the top of the "+" points to 12 o clock in that arch. If it doesn't, you will have mushy brakes.
Like this:
If you go past the 12 o clock position on the piston, go around again. Don't turn it counter clockwise.
7) Once you have the piston in position, close/reinstall your bleeder screw, and slip the caliper over the pads and onto the caliper bracket. You can also remove the vise grips from the brake line. Since you're working on the rear calipers, you will have the parking brake cable fighting you so it may take a bit to get it squared away. IMPORTANT: carefully thread the caliper bolts back into the slide pins. Feel for any resistance (when I am removing mine, I give them a few turns back in so I can get a feel for how much resistance to expect). The reason for this, especially on the rears is because of the parking brake assembly, the caliper will want to fight you, and won't want to sit straight in the bracket. If you start threading the caliper bolts into the pins and the caliper is crooked, you could risk cross threading the bolts which would be a bad day. If there was no resistance before and there is now, something is out of whack. Be patient and careful. Don't over tighten the bolts.
Also, on all the bolts, I put a touch of anti seize on the threads so they will be easier to work with next time.
Give your wheel a spin. it will be noisy from the pads sitting against it. No worries.
8 ) Get in and push your brake pedal. It will probably be soft. Pop your hood (or bonnet) and top off your master cylinder. Try the brakes again. You should have a good pedal again. If not the vise grips weren't tight enough, and air got into the system. No biggie, you will have to bleed your brakes.
Brake bleeding:
Order of operation: (5th gen)
Left front
Right front
Right rear
Left rear
1) Top off the master cylinder.
2) Take your pop bottle bleeder, and put the tube on the bleeder screw nipple.
3) Open the bleeder screw.
4) Pump the brakes a couple times and look for (or have a friend look for) fluid going through the tube. When the fluid coming from the caliper turns solid (no gaps or bubbles) close the bleeder screw.
5) Repeat for each wheel, and check/top off the master cylinder OFTEN! Never let it run dry.
On the rear calipers, because the bleeder screw is in a stupid position, you may have a hard time getting a good seal on the bleeder screw/tube. you can use a zip tie, or have a friend hold the tube on the bleed screw tightly.
By the end of this you should have a good stiff pedal again.
6) Reinstall the rubber caps on the bleeder screws.
You may have to readjust your parking brake. To do this, I take out the console (you don't have to completely remove it, but I do because it's easier.)
1) Remove console
2) Pull the parking brake up one click/notch and spin the rear wheels to see if there is slight drag.
2) Adjust the nut (with the parking brake released) to adjust until you get slight drag with one notch. If you do it correctly, the parking brake will be fully engaged at 6-10 notches.
I hope this helps.
1997 Prelude Base (wrecked)
1996 Prelude SR (sold)
1994 Subaru SVX LSi (Sold)
Current:
1999 Prelude Base (S-Spec build in progress)
1990 Nissan 300ZX (weee!)
2011 Ford CVPI (daily)
1957 Cadillac Coupe de Ville
1996 Prelude SR (sold)
1994 Subaru SVX LSi (Sold)
Current:
1999 Prelude Base (S-Spec build in progress)
1990 Nissan 300ZX (weee!)
2011 Ford CVPI (daily)
1957 Cadillac Coupe de Ville
-
BlackShadow
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:25 am
- My Generation: 5G
- Location: Whitby. Not THAT Whitby, the other Whitby, the one in Durham. Not THAT Durham, the other Durham.
Jack it up using the tow hook under the spare tire well, and place your axle stands on either side of the car just ahead of the rear wheel. If you look underneath the rocker panel you will see a "tab" hanging down from the pinch weld. There are four of them, two in front of the rear wheels and two more behind the front wheels. You can't miss'em they hang down lower.
I'm all about the visual aids:
I'm all about the visual aids:
1997 Prelude Base (wrecked)
1996 Prelude SR (sold)
1994 Subaru SVX LSi (Sold)
Current:
1999 Prelude Base (S-Spec build in progress)
1990 Nissan 300ZX (weee!)
2011 Ford CVPI (daily)
1957 Cadillac Coupe de Ville
1996 Prelude SR (sold)
1994 Subaru SVX LSi (Sold)
Current:
1999 Prelude Base (S-Spec build in progress)
1990 Nissan 300ZX (weee!)
2011 Ford CVPI (daily)
1957 Cadillac Coupe de Ville
I have written a caliper refurb guide guys, in the tech section with pics of how to get it done, personaly I've never had issues with the copper. Yes it isn't the most friendly thing to rubber but I guess it could vary from company to company given the make up of the product, even between batches it can be hit and miss to a degree. Still use what you have, if you have lithium or silicone grease use that. My own personal view given the temperatures I used to regularly heat the brakes to on the lude was that lithium or copper grease would be my only choice as I was always hard on them and boiled a good bit of fluid too, nowt liek your foot going clean to the floor and not stopping any quicker for some brown trouser action.
That said the guide is a bit general purpose so have a little read and look through it, it's not that hard to do tbh and as Gayno said we've had no issues with his brakes, never know could even be something else making the copper go off?
That said the guide is a bit general purpose so have a little read and look through it, it's not that hard to do tbh and as Gayno said we've had no issues with his brakes, never know could even be something else making the copper go off?
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mercutio
- LotM Winner
- Posts: 14958
- Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:45 pm
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righty tighty lefty loosey
bristol_bb4 wrote:ahhh a 5th gen, i love 5th gens
Dino wrote:I loves the 5th gen really.... just dont quote me on it...
4thgenphil wrote:Mines 4 1/4 unches mate, sorry
http://www.ludegeneration.co.uk/profile ... -t618.html
Yeah, but on the rear it appears the other way because you are working on it from the "front" as such.
It's all working a hell of a lot better now though!
Took it all apart, cleaned up the pins (they were ok anyway, but cleaning never hurt!) took the pads off which were jammed solid, took off all the corrosion off using wire brushes from the spring clips so the pads could actually move a little again then put it back together and it was still crap and the rear wheel wouldn't turn very well, like the handbrake was partially on.
Soooo, centre console partially out and adjust hand brake, no better but the left was a significant improvement over its original state too, so something good done there.
Calliper off again and hand brake cable off just incase (removed the pin etc) still no joy!
Realised that the core issue seems to have stemmed from the piston being put in at the wrong angle. What was happening was the pin on the back of the pad was being pushed by the piston because it wasn't seated in the groove. Was really obvious after I actually took another look because there was a shiny small circle on the face of the damn piston!
Not sure HOW it happened, but it had, wind the piston back using a flatblade (moves way easier than I thought), pump the brake a little with the engine turning over, rotate wheels by hand and near as I'll get to perfect I think.
Brakes still work and so does the handbrake, all be it better than before with no jamming, slight rubbing, but nothing too bad.
Ok it took some time, a lot of fiddling etc, but well worth it and I'm a happy bunny with a heck of a lot less fear for pissing with the brakes. Now I can stop paying the mechanic to do brake stuff for me as I feel I could almost confidently work on a replacement now.
It's all working a hell of a lot better now though!
Took it all apart, cleaned up the pins (they were ok anyway, but cleaning never hurt!) took the pads off which were jammed solid, took off all the corrosion off using wire brushes from the spring clips so the pads could actually move a little again then put it back together and it was still crap and the rear wheel wouldn't turn very well, like the handbrake was partially on.
Soooo, centre console partially out and adjust hand brake, no better but the left was a significant improvement over its original state too, so something good done there.
Calliper off again and hand brake cable off just incase (removed the pin etc) still no joy!
Realised that the core issue seems to have stemmed from the piston being put in at the wrong angle. What was happening was the pin on the back of the pad was being pushed by the piston because it wasn't seated in the groove. Was really obvious after I actually took another look because there was a shiny small circle on the face of the damn piston!
Not sure HOW it happened, but it had, wind the piston back using a flatblade (moves way easier than I thought), pump the brake a little with the engine turning over, rotate wheels by hand and near as I'll get to perfect I think.
Brakes still work and so does the handbrake, all be it better than before with no jamming, slight rubbing, but nothing too bad.
Ok it took some time, a lot of fiddling etc, but well worth it and I'm a happy bunny with a heck of a lot less fear for pissing with the brakes. Now I can stop paying the mechanic to do brake stuff for me as I feel I could almost confidently work on a replacement now.
1998 5th Gen 2.2 VTi Manual H22A5 BB8
