uprated calipers

[si import]

Want to upgrade my front brakes on my lude. Its a 1993 h22a prelude. At my local car breakers there a 3litre accord coupe which has twinpot front calipers. I was wondering if they were a direct replacment for the origional ones. Cheers jon

[nucleustylzlude]

Well I never, same twin pots as the Honda Legend / Accord Type R's. Just checked on brakesint.co.uk. I currently have the Legends on mine (soon to go for BIG brakes).

If you can get them at a good price it should be worth it - get the carriers too.

[si import]

Cheers mate. Think ill drop in there tomorrow. Did you think they were a good upgrade to the standard brakes. Cheers jon

[Ammo]

There was a thread on PUK about this, something about the braking force wasn't much different as the cailpers are the same size, but I might be remembering it wrong

I had mental brakes on the old lude, too good really, locked up the fronts far to easily

[si import]

Ok cheers . those brakes look huge. i bet they were mental. cheers jon

[Froidas]

Friends reported, that brake pedal is a little bid more soft, after Legend caliper upgrade. Have anyone noticed? Although master brake cylinders are the same, as I remember. It shouldn't and won't increase braking very noticeably, because roughly pads and disc diameter are main factors of that (not only of course).
But I would definitely do it. So take them

I got NSX calipers and put braided brake lines at once. My brake pedal is very stiff, I like it. But NSX caliper is smaller than Legend/Accord 3.0/ATR. So I have a question.

http://www.ludegeneration.co.uk/honda-p ... -t801.html

If I am right about CL part, Prelude and Legend calipers are the same and the pedal should be the same stiffness

[JayJay]

Ammo - Yeah I remember that thread. I think basically it was the Legend are twin pot, but the pistons are smaller. The Lude is one large piston. So overall not a huge amount of difference?

[NafemanNathan]

Ammo - Yeah I remember that thread. I think basically it was the Legend are twin pot, but the pistons are smaller. The Lude is one large piston. So overall not a huge amount of difference?

That's what I remembered to. Didn't think there was much point in Legend/NSX calipers as an "upgrade".

[nucleustylzlude]

Right found all the postson PUK I had written on Legend / NSX calipers when people have asked at numrous times:

I've put up a little info on the car in your thread.

Just searched and found a bunch of stuff I'd typed up on Lude Behaviour. Copy and paste for ya, hope most of it makes sense taken out of the context of a thread. :Wink: :


POST 1:
Yep Legends and NSX are a straight fit as long as you have the carriers (caliper mount part). However there are a couple of issues. Due to the calipers mounted on their original cars on the trailing side (on the rear of the disc) as opposed to the Preludes leading position (on the front of the disc) when you mount them the bleed nipple will face down making it impossible to bleed.

However a quick fix is to switch the right to the left, and the left to the right. Some say you can undo the top caliper bolt to swing it down and bleed. But the hassle to wedge something so the piston doesn't fly out and the annoying task of having to close them back up. I didn't bother.

They are a small improvement, I got mine as I needed some spares to refurbish anyway, found a set (in a scrap yard) and got the spares from the above link to refurb.

The twin piston setup is 38mm and 42mm piston as opposed to the 54mm (I think) single piston in the Prelude. I won't go into maths but they're marginally better. But it does suffer from a little more pedal travel. Think I need a larger master cylinder??? But more than easy to live with.

The only problem going for NSX calipers are:

1) Finding a set. While you can order a set from the above site, that's just for the calipers not the carriers which you need for them to fit.
2) The NSX twin piston setup actually uses smaller pistons than the Legend ones so may as well get the most potential.

Obviously the NSX ones do look cool as hell with the NSX casting and they do add the benefit of cooling fins - but not sure how much these really make a difference?

POST 2:
I got mine second hand from a scrap yard. Found them on a search for Legends breaking on ebay. Had to refurbish them though, all new seals, boots but pistons seemed in good nick. Oh and a fresh coat of red hammerite.

Here they are just before I fitted em. Mmmm clean, I could've eat my dinner off them!



You can also try:

Brakes International

They do refurbed calipers (like new TBH) and all the kits to change/refurb any calipers.

POST 3:
In all honesty? Ready for an essay?

For the money I would rather have spent it elsewhere. As an upgrade it's pretty minimal. But I did it as I thought I had a seized/sticking caliper and my discs/pads needed replacing anyway.

Turned out to be the rears sticking and causing the warping. So it's back to bone shaking breaking down from high speeds!

Need to replace all again in a month and have decided to do it all 'properly' this time.

They say to switch the calipers left to right, and right to left. This is because the bleed nipple will face downward when installed because the caliper on the Legend sits trailing (i.e. on the side of the disc facing the back of the car) but the Ludes carrier mounting points sit the caliper on the leading side (towards the front of the car). This makes it near impossible to bleed properly.

So this switching is problem number 1. It is a problem because the pistons are different sizes (38 & 42 if I remember right).
They are designed this way depending on the direction the disc is spinning so that the larger piston (think that's right) exerts more force at direction the disc rotates into the caliper before the smaller. Switching them round because of the bleed nipple problem is opposite to this and therefore the design doesn't work as optimum as it should.

The second problem is the thickness of the discs. The Legend's discs of the top of my head are 28mm thick with the 4th gen VTEC in at 24/25mm thick??? Unsure of my exact sizes but they are definitely thinner. The overall diameter's are the same though. Because of this you get more travel on the pedal before the pads bite. I thought the bedding in and bleeding would settle the pads in the right place to bite ok. But apparently it's common. Less fluid is required to move through just the pipes if the pistons are set right in. If they are as mine - a few mm out then then the amount of fluid to move the piston is more to fill the extra 38mm and 48mm diameter of piston bore. The best options are:

1) Use the Legend discs - 5th gen VTEC's are ok as the PCD is 5 x 114.3 as the Legend's discs are drilled for.
On the other hand, 2.0 5th gen's and in my case all 4th gens have PCD 4 x 114.3. So to get these to fit you need them either drilled like this from the factory - some manufacturers should be able to do it - Or order some Legend's and get them drilled yourself. Of course this option means more holes and less integrity to the disc (although being a part of the 'bell' should be ok anyway).

2) I have also heard of people upgrading the brake master cyclinder to pump a larger volume of fluid in less pedal travel. Not looked into this one yet - and don't know where to start to get a larger one to fit unless the Legend's goes straight on???

Anyway a few things to think about. I upgraded my pads and disc to EBC redstuff and ebay job drilled and grooved which seem to be more of an improvement to the calipers. However the Redstuff do take a bit of heating up to work 100%. This combined with more pedal travel and my return of the warpage has overall got me looking at bigger setups recently. Not that I have the money!

Anyway a few of my thoughts. I'd say go for it! For learning about brakes there's nothing better than refurbing and installing. Plus done right with good upgrades is noticable enough to matter.

Forgot to add how to overcome the bleeding problem. Well I've read on various sites where it is suggested all you need to do it undo the top guide pin bolt (from the carrier to the caliper) and slide the caliper around pivoting on the bottom guide pin bolt (will need to loosen this obviously) so it's facing down and therefore bleed nipple facing up where it needs to be! But in order to bleed you have to pump the pedals and believe me you don't want a piston to come shooting out! Apparently you need to stick in the correct depth of pads and discs of something solid to wedge in there for bleeding. I can't see any reason why you couldn't hold and use the actual discs and pads and then once it's bled take other guide pin bolt off and carrier. Then re-install everything. Seems a bit of a bodgy way and can't see the caliper sliding on once at the disc/pad thickness, perhaps without a little gentle persuasion.

Anyway when I redo my pads and discs I'm gonna give this a try and I have a friend who does CNC machining, who said he can do the Legend discs for my PCD be it blank discs or working with an existing 5 x 114.3. With a better choice of pads I'm hoping things will be improved. I'll let you know the result.

POST 4:
Yeah it did take a bit to write, I like to be thorough! Anyone would think that I don't have any work to be getting on with!

Well hope your ready for my next essay:

Yuri: Yes NSX brakes go straight on - they are the similar to the legends but made out of a lighter metal (Aluminium or something???) and they have the cooling fins on them and of course the uber cool NSX lettering cast into them for aaaall to see! I thought they were identical but on research they are slightly smaller than the Legend's:

Legend pistons: 42mm & 38mm
NSX pistons: 40mm & 36mm

However they'll cost you a bomb and that's if you can find a set and the braking aint any different for that much extra money. It's just a cool mod like the Legend calipers.

Funnily enough I actually noticed the other day on Brakes International that they do the NSX calipers cheaper than the Legend calipers, but I expect they are aftermarket cast replacements which don't have all the good features of the original.


Also...forget all that crap I wrote above. Found out more information:

The Legend or NSX discs are 28mm thick and the Prelude discs are just a measly 23mm thick in comparison! I wonder if this explains their weakness for warping under various conditions??? Even though they are all 282mm diameter discs, you won't be able to get either to fit though I'm afraid. It's not just the PCD that is wrong. The diameter of the hub is bigger on the other two too:

Prelude 4th gen: 64mm
NSX: 70mm
Legend: 70.2mm

As well as this the mounting of the disc in relation to the caliper will be wrong as the overall width of the discs (including mounting bell part) are:

Prelude 4th gen: 47.5mm
NSX: 37mm
Legend: 48mm

Well the Legend's are close, you may get away with it with the tolerance in the caliper/pads but need to bare in mind there is an extra 5mm of disk thickness within it catering for the annoying pedal travel I have got.

Can you get spacers for discs??? Or am I losing the plot with this one???

How about Integra discs??? Off I go to find the answer...


Oh and Daiz: Not sure where a figure of 280bhp comes from, but don't disagree that the standard brakes aren't up to it at all, with fully working calipers and uprated discs/pads they are fine. The only real reason for these conversions as I mentioned before, is when a caliper is seized or needs refurbing and a spare set to do is easier than having your car of the road for a bit. It also has a certain cool factor converting any part of one Honda to another. Roll on my 5th gen glass sunroof!

As said I'll be redoing my pads/discs up front soon (probably get the goodridge hoses to finish it all, so whatever I find out and install I'll let you know the feedback.

The pedal is only a little softer beacuse of the disc thicknesses, that's all. Overall I think there is a marginal improvement, but not something you'd notice. The force exerted through the two pistons walls I think is just slightly more than the Prelude large single piston wall, but like I said not loads in it. Mate with some nice pads, discs, braided hoses and fresh fluid and they're up to the job for most driving.

Ammo: Nice brakes...
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[honda-hardy]

rob, are those the rays wheels i shot blasted for you? whats the overall progress?

sorry to threadjack