Ukraine

Post by **lewd lude lover** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:40 pm

couldn't care less personally. its just people licking off. People love to kick off. Its such a shock to people when its in our backyard though. shame really. we could do with a kickoff here imho.

YouTube · Post by **Sailor** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:24 pm

Donald wrote: I wonder how many others have echoing posts of apparent superior understanding of the complex subject now that the mass media has finally 'caught up'.

Loads.

Too much is made of conflicting historic views. It's as accurate (or not) to see Russia as an offshoot of Ukraine as the opposite approach. It's as useful (or not) to see the issue as pro-Russia versus pro-Europe as it is to argue that it's Slavic versus Germanic. Far better to look at where we we are now and what has happened relatively recently to get us there.

Consider: the break-up of the Soviet Union not only lost vast agricultural potential to Russia but also a disproportionate industrial capacity. The peaceful way would be to encourage massive trade between the two countries.

Consider: with the possible exception of the Baltic states, virtually all ex-Soviet states have seen the rise of oligarchs who control the money flow through take-over, some of it via legal means, and most of it via collusion between politicians and industrialists. Russia and Ukraine are typical examples. Elections may have been deemed fair and even properly democratic; control of the purse strings has never been. All emergent nations seem to go through this.

Russia is up against it. Its leaders have to seem to be strong at an international level in order to maintain power at home. (Our own governments have played the same game. Trouble at home? Sink the Belgrano!) In Ukraine, this option is limited. So let's try force or nepotism or cronyism or all three.

It can't be fixed from the outside. It needs more than a generation to fix it from within.

mercutio · Post by **mercutio** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:43 pm

we should stay out of this and every other tin pot war let the rest of the world play at being outraged this time we should stay neutral.
I have done enough of dealing with tin pot dictators and warlords in Africa me and my family are looking out for ourselves

Post by **GreenyUK** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:02 pm

All part of the plan, one world order not far off..

Shiny · Post by **Shiny** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:36 am

When did Weird Al Yankovic become the President of Ukraine?

Last I heard he was recording parodies.

89 UKDM BA4 4WS (resto job!) · Post by **wurlycorner** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:46 am

Regardless of any views that may or may not be held about 'EU good', 'Russia bad' (not something I've literally said btw) there is no way that Russia's intervention into Crimea can be seen as anything other than completely unjustified, unecessary and unacceptable.

It's completely wrong to move what was a wholly internal struggle (which was starting to reach a peaceful end process I think, however long that would have taken to run its course, as well described by sailor I think) into an international game of chess using armed forces.

It is nothing other than an invasion and cannot be tolerated.

Post by **lewd lude lover** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:35 pm

wurlycorner wrote:
It is nothing other than an invasion and cannot be tolerated.

and do what exactly? what? come on.... what? what do you intend to do if they decide ''f uck it, we are having all of it back and sod the lot of you'' eh? What?

The biggest bully in the local area is flexing his muscles and you and nato are going to do what? What~? What will you do?

nothing thats what. MIGHT IS RIGHT. Anyone who says otherwise is not mighty. All this political bullshiit is just that. It comes down to resource and russia will not allow all that resource to go to europe.

So I repeat. If this 'shall not be tolerated' what exactly, baring force which is all russia understands, would you have done?

two pints of ale with a small lunch beligerance here

89 UKDM BA4 4WS (resto job!) · Post by **wurlycorner** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:04 pm

What will I do? Personally? Nothing - I have no means of fighting an entire state!

But our government and the UN need to respond and put a stop to it by whatever means they think is the most appropriate. I'd think (and would hope) there should be absolutely no need for military intervention, but Russia signed up to a deal protecting Crimea's borders/soverainty with Ukraine and they need to be made to stick to their agreement.

mercutio · Post by **mercutio** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:11 pm

unfortunately wurly nato is made up of squabbling states who all worry who is gonna pay for it and what their electorate will say when the first bodies start coming home.
On the other hand you have putin who doesn't care what the electorate think as he will lock up any one who speaks out and he will pay for it by taking what he wants.
there is no way to reason with putin the only reason he understands is 7.62mm FMJ long or possibly 50cal

89 UKDM BA4 4WS (resto job!) · Post by **wurlycorner** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:49 pm

Oh you're absolutely right about Putin - it won't be a case of reasoning with him, it'll be either because of hitting him where it hurts (or bribery) but here's hoping that can be achieved without resorting to military might...